From Acronyms to Action: Leading and Thriving Through DEI Challenges with Michelle Silverthorn
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Description
We’re living in a time when diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) efforts are under fire—from boycott threats against inclusive brands to coordinated campaigns aimed at dismantling DEI in government, corporate, and educational spaces. As organizations face pressure to retreat, some are rolling back the very initiatives designed to create belonging and equity at work.
But retreat isn’t an option for those of us committed to inclusion, belonging, and values-based leadership.
With April being Celebrate Diversity Month, this felt like the right time to talk about what’s happening, and what we can do to keep creating supportive, thriving environments despite the pushback. This moment calls for clarity, courage, and leadership rooted in values—not just acronyms. So I’ve invited my friend, fellow speaker, and inclusion expert Michelle Silverthorn for a conversation that’s both timely and necessary. She shares insight into the work she does and how she empowers employees and leaders to build inclusive cultures where people can truly thrive.
In this episode of Branding Room Only, Michelle and I explore the role of belonging in workplace culture, today and in the future. We dig into what’s really driving the backlash to DEI, why inclusion still matters, how to navigate the challenges inside your organization, and what it looks like to show up authentically in a world that often discourages it.
Chapters
2:09 – Michelle’s definition of personal branding, how she describes herself in three phrases, plus her favorite quote and hype songs
7:40 – Her upbringing, education, and the core belief at 17 that shaped her deep connection to hope
12:15 – The legal industry experiences that sparked her focus on inclusion and led to launching her company
17:11 – What can happen when people can’t be authentic at work—and why authenticity is key to thriving
26:48 – The internal and external barriers to belonging and authenticity in the workplace
29:00 – The current state of DEI and how to navigate today’s shifting landscape
35:45 – What to do if your company is rolling back DEI, but you’re still committed to the work
38:24 – The authentic business case for DEI and the opportunity to show leadership right now
45:07 – How Michelle sees the future of workplace culture, and the role of affinity groups in creating belonging
50:27 – What Michelle does for fun, why she’ll never compromise on civility, and the power of storytelling in her brand
Connect With Michelle Silverthorn
Michelle Silverthorn is an award-winning keynote speaker, best-selling author, and the founder and CEO of Inclusion Nation. A graduate of Princeton University and the University of Michigan Law School, she has lent her expertise to Fortune 500 companies, law firms, Hollywood studios, law schools, universities, nonprofits around the world. From eight-person workshops to 1,000-person conferences, she equips everyone with the necessary tools and skills to finally make real progress on belonging and inclusion.
Recently, Michelle was named by Inc. Magazine as one of the top 250 Female Founders in the world. Her next book, This is How You Thrive: Six Steps to Authenticity, Success, and Fulfillment at Work, will be released in 2026.
Inclusion Nation | LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube
“We Are Not a Melting Pot” | TEDx Talk
Mentioned In From Acronyms to Action: Leading and Thriving Through DEI Challenges with Michelle Silverthorn
“Hold My Hand” by Jess Glynne:
We’ve Got This: Unlocking the Beauty of Belonging by Ritu Bhasin
Embrace Who You Really Are & Unlock a True Sense of Belonging with Ritu Bhasin
Curated Resources from Paula
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Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by PGE Consulting Group LLC.
PGE Consulting Group LLC is dedicated to providing a practical hybrid of professional development training and diversity solutions. From speaking to consulting to programming and more, all services and resources are carefully tailored for each partner. Paula Edgar’s distinct expertise helps engage attendees and create lasting change for her clients.
To learn more about Paula and her services, go to www.paulaedgar.com or contact her at info@paulaedgar.com, and follow Paula Edgar and the PGE Consulting Group LLC on LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Paula Edgar: Welcome to The Branding Room Only Podcast where we share career stories, strategies, and lessons learned on how industry leaders and influencers have built their personal brands. Now, let's get started with the show.
Hi, everyone. It's Paula Edgar, your host of Branding Room Only, and I am so excited for today's conversation because it is with my friend and someone who I'm often—someone says, "That's Michelle, that's Paula," and I'm like, "Mm, we're different."
I'm going to tell you just how different we are because, number one, we're not the same because we're talking to each other on this podcast. Let me tell you about Michelle Silverthorn. She is an award-winning keynote speaker, founder, and CEO of Inclusion Nation, and a best-selling author.
Her bio—Michelle Silverthorn is an award-winning global keynote speaker who believes each of us deserves to belong, thrive, and succeed. A graduate of Princeton University and the University of Michigan Law School, Michelle has lent her expertise to Fortune 500 companies, law firms, Hollywood studios, law schools and universities, and nonprofits around the world.
From eight-person workshops to 1,000-person conferences, Michelle equips everyone with the necessary tools and skills to finally make real progress on belonging and inclusion. Child, do we need that.
Michelle is a TEDx speaker, a best-selling author, and was recently named by Inc. Magazine as one of the top 250 female founders in the world. Her next book, This Is How You Thrive: Six Steps to Authenticity, Success, and Fulfillment at Work, will be released in 2026.
You can receive her newsletter about authenticity, allyship, and inclusion every week on Monday mornings—Monday Mornings with Michelle—one of my favorite emails each week.
Everybody, welcome Michelle to the Branding Room. Round of applause, round of applause, round of applause. Hi.
Michelle Silverthorn: Hi, my friend. How are you?
Paula Edgar: Hi. I'm well. I'm excited for this conversation. I'm really happy. This has been a long time coming for us to dive into all the things that we love and do often. Let's jump into it. What does personal branding mean to you, Michelle?
Michelle Silverthorn: Oh my goodness. Paula knows this. I started out as an attorney, and I was an attorney for a number of years. Then I decided to join the Illinois Supreme Court, and I spoke about speeches on inclusion and belonging for many years. Then I started my own company.
When you start your own company, you really have to figure out what narrative and story you want to put out there for the world. What is that story of yourself that you want other people to see?
When I think of personal branding—because it actually ties a lot into the Thrive program that I do these days—I think about, What is the story about myself I want to put out there? But then, How do others perceive me? Is that story that I want to put out accurate? Is it true?
Then, Where is the disconnect between "This is who I think I am," and "This is how other people perceive me?" Personal brand to me is, How do I align both of those? Then, How do I align them in everything I do? In my vision statement, in my mission, in my values, who I work with, how I put myself on media. But it's always, for me, making sure that how people perceive me and how I perceive myself are aligned with each other.
Paula Edgar: Perfect definition. Awesome. How do you perceive you? How would you describe yourself in three words or short phrases?
Michelle Silverthorn: Interestingly, I thought about this. I'm an immigrant. The reason Paula and I get confused a lot is because we're both from Jamaica. She's much more New York than I am or ever will be. I only lived in New York for two years. Paula has been there forever.
I'm an immigrant. That means a lot to me. I am inclusive. I truly believe in building community and coalitions because that's how we can survive this world that we are in right now. I am very energetic.
I say that last one because when I've asked my clients—I think this was actually Paula's suggestion—when I've asked my clients to describe what they liked about working with me and what they enjoyed, a lot of them came back with, "Such good energy, lots of energy, you brought great energy." So I will always say, "I'm an immigrant, I'm inclusive, and I bring a lot of energy."
Paula Edgar: I love those. I love it. This is essentially—it's a brand exercise. How do you perceive yourself? One of the things that I do for some of my guests is to tell them how I perceive them for the alignment too. It may not be the exact same words, but the first word that I thought of when I was thinking about this for you is strategic.
I will say to you, patting my own self on the back, that is high praise because I don't give it to a lot of people. Also, I agree with energetic. I haven't seen your energy down.
Michelle Silverthorn: You didn't see me this week, that is what you're saying. Yeah, right.
Paula Edgar: My last one was stylish.
Michelle Silverthorn: Thank you. Actually, honestly, coming from you—every time we're at a conference together, Paula does two great things at conferences. She takes lots of pictures and videos, and she makes sure to tag people in them. Please, all y'all, do that.
But she always looks great because Paula's brand is purple—well, not today—but usually, it's purple, and that's how everyone remembers her and sees her. That is high praise coming from you [inaudible].
Paula Edgar: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Do you have a favorite quote or motto?
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, I know it's reused a lot, and I know it's used a lot. I do like the Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie quote because I talk about Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie in my TED Talk, and it's about having a single story. "If you only have a single story, stereotypes are a single story. It's not that they're untrue, but single stories are incomplete."
I thought about that. I spent a very long time talking about stereotypes and talking about bias. Now, with a new book coming out, I'm talking about what it means to thrive at work. For me, it works both ways—How you see other people can be single stories. But also, what is the story about yourself?
I think about—back to your point, which I honestly think I've borrowed from you—How do people perceive you? Is there only one story that they are perceiving? And how many other stories can you be telling? I love that, just thinking about what it means to be a single story, to have a single story about someone else.
Especially when now in these days, when so many who are telling the story of what we do for a living—and they're making it a single story that's not true—being able to counter that narrative with the truth is something that matters a lot to me.
Paula Edgar: Yes, countering narratives with truths is definitely important, particularly these days, which we're going to get into.
Do you have a hype song? When they're going to get full Michelle Silverthorn with her cape on, on the stage, what song is playing in your head or maybe playing on the stage? What song?
Michelle Silverthorn: I got two for you. Always, for the last few years, it's been Girl on Fire. That chorus on Girl on Fire is on point. However, let me tell you my new workout, my friends. I got myself a virtual reality headset. In this virtual reality headset—just the best—the only thing I do in it is this workout called Supernatural. I am obsessed with it. But then they play lots of songs.
But there's a song that they play, which I want to be my hype song forever. It's called Hold My Hand by Jess Glynne. I'd never heard the song before, but it is just fun and engaging, and it's all about showing up as your authentic self. You're going to find your people, and your people are going to be there, and they are holding your hand, and they are supporting you.
It has a great beat and a great chorus. You may not know it—folks may not know it—because I mean, I only heard it when I did this workout thing, but Hold My Hand by Jess Glynne. That's my new hype song.
Paula Edgar: Well, we are going to definitely put it in the show notes, and it's going to go in the soundtrack for the podcast. There's that, and I'm excited to hear about that.
I know a little bit about this story because I've heard you speak before, but I want everybody else to hear this, which is—Michelle, where did you grow up and how did that shape you?
Michelle Silverthorn: Let me tell you, Paula. I grew up in Jamaica. My whole family is either Jamaican or Trinidadian, or like Hanumanian, or we can keep going back to English. We can keep going back a long time. But my dad and my mom met at university—University of the West Indies in Trinidad and Tobago. They're both engineers.
I lived in Jamaica my entire life until I came to America. And I came here to go to college—to Princeton University. I have many wonderful New York City memories. Then after Princeton, after I was there for four years, I went back to Trinidad, lived there for a year, came back to America, went to Michigan for law school, and on and on. And now I live in Ann Arbor, just where I live right now.
You asked how my journey affected what I do for a living. I mean, I could tell—I mean, Paula's heard this story. I tell a lot of people about a flight that I took from Jamaica to New York through Miami, where my wallet was stolen. Everyone on that plane raised money for me so I could get back to school.
The pilot actually passed around his pilot hat so people could donate money. I tell people that story because I just think that—what I tell folks in belonging programs is it's not hard. It's hard to treat people with compassion and empathy and kindness and to support each other, but it takes an act.
Sometimes it takes an act that doesn't feel very comfortable or very natural to you. It takes leaders who are willing to do it and who are willing to say, "We are going to create a space where everyone can succeed." So that's why I tell that story. I'm like, "People care about each other, and we have compassion in the community, and I want to always make that real."
Paula Edgar: Yeah, no. Y'all, as a New Yorker, I heard the story and I was like, “They did what?”
Michelle Silverthorn: "They did what? Which flight now was that?"
Paula Edgar: I know. I was like, “What airline was that?”
Michelle Silverthorn: Miami to JFK—was it more Floridians or New Yorkers on the plane?"
Paula Edgar: It could be either. What I love about the story—and I was reflecting on it in anticipation of us talking—is that at its core, I think we are tuned to love each other, to just be empathetic and to understand the human experience.
Again, my family is Jamaican and Bajan, but I'm not from Jamaica. When I think about people's stories, I have these points where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe you did that."
When I think about it, "Oh my goodness, coming to the United States as an adult—a young adult, but still an adult—is just by itself scary. Then to lose your wallet?" But then to realize... It makes me think that you probably have a much deeper connection to hope than some of us do because you've experienced it.
Michelle Silverthorn: I've actually thought about that a lot, especially this year. I have a core belief that was founded in me when I was 17 years old. Because of that core belief—I mean, the other part of the story I tell was when I was held up at gunpoint, it's a much sadder story.
We were told that we were going to be killed, and we weren’t. We escaped that, and we lived through that. It's, again, making intentional choices in your life to either say, "My life is going to be the side character in someone else’s narrative, or I’m going to be the hero in my own narrative."
Always pushing forward, believing that about yourself, and believing that there is a community of people who are going to support me, who are going to say, "I got you, we got this."
And you have to find it. Because if you don’t find it, then it does feel like it can be defeating, and lonely out there. The more that you believe that that community exists and that you deserve to be—you deserve everything—that belief is what gets me through the day.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, I love that. I feel like no matter when you listen to this podcast, I think the answer is—we always sort of need that as a part of the human condition. When I was in undergrad, I studied anthropology. One of the things that I loved about that was thinking about cultures and how cultures are shaped. Within every culture, there are also archetypes to that culture, always.
I think we're now living with some of the archetypes that we thought was our culture, and some new archetypes are rising up. But over and over again in the studies was like, yes, but the truth—the core of it—always comes back to who you actually are, what your values are, what you find important, and how you love each other. That's what I hold onto when I think about the world and how we're navigating it now.
You quickly went through that you went to Princeton, you went to law school, and now you're a fabulous speaker, speaking to thousands of people. But slow it down a bit and come back. Talk to me about the journey—after you finished at Princeton and then decided to go to law school—what made you pivot into this space?
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, I’m sure Paula did this on purpose, but she is wearing maize, and I’m wearing blue, and that is our lovely Michigan colors. I will always support my school.
So, after I graduated from Michigan Law School, I worked in large law firms. I worked at a large law firm in New York in 2008, which was probably the worst year to possibly start at a law firm in New York City. Our friend Sonya Som can talk about that too.
Yeah, so I started practicing in 2008. I was very lucky—I was not laid off—and then I moved to Chicago in 2010. But I tell this story in my first book, I talk about this experience, which is being overlooked, not seen, and feeling like there were especially older male lawyers who would walk past my office all the time, for whatever reasons. And they had a lot of reasons.
Over the years, I’ve been working with a lot of older male partners who want to be more inclusive and want to do the work because they really believe in the work of inclusion. And we talked about, "Why do you walk past that young Black female associate’s door?" Because of discomfort, because you feel like you’re not going to be a good mentor to her, because there’s someone else who’s a better fit for her, because it’s easier. I get all these reasons.
I saw that a lot. But then I saw what the end of the road is, which is you have all these incredibly talented people—women, people of color, people from different identity groups—who simply don’t get the same access, who just don’t get the inside information, who don’t get the knowledge, who don’t get the support, who don’t get the advocacy.
Because I saw that when I was at my law firms. Then, when I left a law firm to work for the Illinois Supreme Court Commission on Professionalism—very long name, but what I would do is I would travel all around the state of Illinois and deliver trainings on five topics: civility, professionalism, mental health, diversity, and ethics.
As you do that more and more, you get to understand a lot of what you just talked about, the anthropology—why people are motivated because of the waves they are, how histories and cultures and backgrounds interact. Chicago, Illinois is a very, very, very diverse state. People have very, very different interests and needs and values across the state.
I did that for seven years. I worked for the Illinois Supreme Court until 2018 for six years. Then, one day, I wrote an op-ed in the Chicago Tribune that was about being called—as a Black woman living on the north side of Chicago, which is predominantly white, and I have two biracial children—being called a nanny to my children over and over again.
I wrote this op-ed, not knowing what would happen to it, where it would go in the universe, and it turned out it went very well in the universe. People loved it. That led to a TED Talk, and that TED Talk led to a book deal.
All of that happened at the same time where I felt I was just really stuck at work. I felt like—and I mean, I talk about this because I’m writing my book right now. This is how I’m thinking in my head—but I was stuck in my own story, and I didn’t know where I was going, and I had to get unstuck.
I went to this conference, which was all women. It was just a meeting of all women who had started their own businesses—any kind. Accounting firms, nail salons, hair salons. Every single one of these women took the step out in faith and said, "We are going to do this. And it might work, it might not work. This is my third business I’ve started. This is my first," whatever it was. And I thought, "If they could do this, and this whole history of attorneys who have put out shingles in firms for generations can do this, then I could start my own company too."
And that’s what I did, and that’s how I started Inclusion Nation. It was like two weeks after I went to that conference, I was like, "Let’s do it. Let’s go."
Paula Edgar: I love it. I love hearing the story. I love the passion behind it. I was just saying to somebody else earlier today that oftentimes each generation thinks that they are the ones who kind of created whatever the magic is.
But as I look back, and with my father's help, I remember that both of my grandparents—maternal and paternal—my grandmothers were both entrepreneurs. Each time I have had a job where I've had to do stuff I don't want to do—which that’s a lot of jobs—I realized just how uncomfortable, literally, my body is like, "Hmm. This does not sit well."
The only time it sits well is when I'm in charge of what it is that I'm putting out—effort, energy, et cetera. That entrepreneurship, I think of it as a core part of my being Caribbean and West Indian, and knowing that I can relate to people, and I can rely on myself and my effort and energy.
So, as I was thinking about—I try to set intentions for each of my podcasts. I'm like, "Okay, this is the conversation. This is where I want to go." Then I just let the universe do what it does. But I have to tell this story because it's going to help us pivot into something else.
So, I started off my introduction of Michelle by telling y'all that we have been confused for each other before. Now, okay, so let's just roll through some of the things that are similar around us. We're both Black women. We both have Jamaican ancestry. We're both married. We both have children. We're both former lawyers. We're both speakers. We both have our own business. There's a lot of similarities. Agreed. Double-click.
And we're super different. From different parts of the country—just a lot of difference. But I went to a conference once—and I think I told you this story, but I got to tell everybody—I went to the conference once, and I was hanging out with some of my friends who were also speakers, and somebody came up to me and was like, "You spoke at my firm, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. You were so great, and I'm still thinking about it."
I was like, "Of course. I mean, I hear that all the time." I was like, "Yes." I was like, "Clearly, I did—whatever you're saying is correct." Then I said to her, "What firm is it?" She said the firm, and I was like, "I’ve never spoken at that firm. That’s odd."
This woman, y'all—you hear it in my voice—was like, "No, I’m sure it was you. You spoke at my firm." And I was like, "Lady, of all the things I've been accused of, I've never been accused of not knowing who I am."
Michelle Silverthorn: Yeah, but she doubled down, Paula. She doubled down.
Paula Edgar: She would not stop. That means she literally doubled down. I had to look towards other people because, again, gaslighting has become a part of American culture. I was like, "Am I on television?" I laugh because, again, I love Michelle. I'm like, "It's not an insult, it's just not right. Is that correct?"
But, brand-wise—because this is what I do—I was like, "Huh. This is my brand." I was like, "Hello, you have been able to differentiate." But then I thought to myself, "What?"
Michelle Silverthorn: So, there was another fun time where someone thought that they had talked to Paula, but then they talked to me after that. I’m like, "Oh yeah, you remember, this is last fall."
Like, "Yeah, I remember when we were supposed to prepare this program, this workshop for us." I was like, "Uh-huh." But then you always say yes, because you're like, "Maybe I just don’t seem to have forgotten this conversation I had with this—" I was like, "Yeah, that workshop that we talked about, about, yeah."
But it was two weeks later that she realized it was actually Paula that she had talked to and not me. Because, thank God, because I had no workshop prepared for that. But yeah.
Also, we talk about different things. That’s the other part. I mean, you are the personal branding queen. I have learned so much from you about personal branding. Your workshops are engaging and interactive. It’s just a different vibe.
But listen—plus, I don’t know who’s listening to this. Listen, all y’all, just steal Paula’s list of conferences and go to them, okay? They all love her, and she’s great at them. Yeah, but no, we get mixed up all the time. We clearly need to work on this, babe. We need to figure out how we’re going to differentiate more.
Paula Edgar: One of the reasons why this podcast has to happen is so that everybody will know that we are different people.
Michelle Silverthorn: We're not the same person. You remember when Michael and Janet Jackson did that Scream video? Part of the reason was because everyone thought they were the same person. I was like, “This is our Scream video, Paula.”
Paula Edgar: This is our Scream video. That’s hilarious. But I wanted to share the story, number one, because it's funny and I have you on the podcast, but it also speaks to something that aligns with what you talk about, which is belonging, making people feel seen and heard within spaces so they can thrive.
I wanted to connect this because in the experience that I had mentioned that I had, the challenge wasn't that I was being mistaken for you. The challenge was that I wasn't being listened to. The challenge was that I was sure about who I was, and this person was like, "No, no, no." And I thought to myself, “This is probably a microcosm of what happens to so many people in their workplaces.”
And so, when you think about your book that is upcoming—Authenticity Is the Key to Thriving—and you spoke about authenticity a lot, why thinking about the need to thrive, why thinking about what people need in the workplace, why is that something that you want to bring to light in terms of your new book?
Michelle Silverthorn: Because I had it. I mean, I feel like the last one that I started in 2018—the last seven years—have been about me. I love that you're strategic, like intentionally choosing my own path and making sure—and this is something especially we do as Black women—making sure it aligns with our community's values and making sure we don't leave our community behind.
When I think about what it means to be authentic—like Ritu has a wonderful book where she talks about what it means to actually have belonging and authenticity—one of the things that she talks about is, it's not just about being authentic by yourself. It's about being part of this group of people and this community and how you can show up in different spaces.
I just think I want people to go into their workplace—the place where they spend, what, 70% of their lives—and feel like, “I am valued. I belong here. I can thrive here. I can stay here.”That, for me, is the last part, because I get requests from so many clients who are like, "Yeah, you know, our young professionals, they don't really want to stay. They want to come for two or three years, and they want to leave." And they feel like they're just drilling on, like, “I've been there. I know what that feels like.”
But there is another way to go about this, and the other way is why I call it thriving at work. One of the words someone used for me was like, "She's a Pollyanna. She's very positive." I'm like, "Yes, I am."
Paula Edgar: See, that's my nickname.
Michelle Silverthorn: Yes, see this again—Paula, Paula. But I do believe that everyone deserves at least the chance, at one point in their life, to know that they are in a place where they are just thriving and vibing and everything is coming their way. That’s the work to do. And it ties in—I mean, I spend a long time talking about bias, and I still talk a lot about bias. I tell people, "Bias is here. We are fixing the workplaces as much as we can, and at the same time, how can we all do our part to make sure that you can stay and succeed here?"
It's not a one-way street; it's a two-way street. And I want you to take advantage of the fact that I know that you are a strong, powerful, individual person. Or maybe you're not, and you don't think you are. But whatever it is, I want you to drive your own narrative forward.
Paula Edgar: Is that what authenticity is for you, that being able to drive your narrative?
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, that's what thriving is for me. For me, authenticity really means a space where I can show up and I can choose. I think everyone has multiple personalities, multiple identities, multiple spaces that they can be in. But do I feel comfortable in all the different spaces? I won't always feel 100% comfortable, but if I show up and I can talk, and I can express myself, and I can tell the jokes that I have, and I can talk to people and they can listen to me and see me and value me—that's when I know I can authentically be there.
I don't think it's enough to just say, "I'm the only person that that matters for," because if the other person isn't listening to me or valuing me or thriving with me, then I'm just sitting there alone by myself feeling like, “I'm vibing,” but no one else around me is. For me, showing up authentically means that you are always considering, "What does it mean to be in the space where people can see me and I can see them and it’s a reciprocal relationship every single time?"
Paula Edgar: Oh, I love that definition. I love the two-way streetness of it too, because so often, you and I both work with a lot of lawyers. I remember going to a conference—you know I love conferences—and the general counsel who was speaking on a panel said, "Authenticity is not keeping it real."
It just sat with me. I was like, “Oh.” It was like a hip-hop bar. Because people think it's an on-and-off switch versus thinking about how you get there, but understanding that if you can't be authentic at all in a space, then it's probably not your space.
Michelle Silverthorn: Probably not your space. It is probably not your space. And part of me wants to share with people—that's okay. That's okay if it's not your space. What are the reasons that you are in this space? Maybe the reason—and I know for a lot of us young attorneys—it was financial security. We were in these spaces because we had loans to pay off. Some people, it's because it's intellectually stimulating. They love the challenge and the thrust of the work that they do. For some people, they're in this space because they don't know where else they're going to go.
That's fine. But how tapped in are you to your core values and to why this matters to you? Again, it has to be an intentional choice. I don’t want folks to just say, "I fell into this and I'm going to stay in this." I mean, you can do that when you're 21. But now, as you get older, you have to decide, "What is this chart, the path that I'm charting for myself?"
Again, thinking about, “Where do I want to be now? Where do I want to be six months from now? Where do I want to be a year from now?” Also, five years is a long time. Let's just talk about what we want to begin today.
That's how I think about what is authentically showing up in spaces where I know that I matter, but I also can control what parts of my personality and what parts of myself I'm willing and able to show to people.
Paula Edgar: I love, love, love that. What do you think are some of the barriers that exist for people not being able to show up and feel as if they belong and can be authentic in their spaces?
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, there's a lot. I think there's both external and internal. One of the barriers, I think, is if you've ever been shut down in the past because of your authentic self. You've tried it. A lot of people carry so much trauma from childhood and so much of who we are, I can tell you—who you were when you were 12 is not who you are now, but a lot of who you were when you were 12 is who you are now, and how we experience middle school and how we experience junior high and the choices that we made then—one of the barriers is our own stories and our own traumas and our own pains and our own memories.
The other barrier is honestly a workplace that sometimes isn't ready for us. One of the ways I describe it is, "There is a room, and there is a table that was never designed for me, and it was built when people like me weren’t even allowed in the room."
You have to do two parts—figuring out for yourself what those internal barriers that you have. Maybe it's, You haven’t found your champions in your space yet. Maybe it's, You haven’t found the work that you can identify with yet. Maybe it's, You're still looking for peers who are able to support you. Maybe the challenge is, You're still trying to figure out how your values can actually attach to this work that you do.
But whatever those internal barriers are, work through those. Figure those out. Because at the same time, there are those external barriers as well. There are partners who will ignore you while you sit right next to them in the office. There is a work-life balance that does not at all balance your life or your work. There are demands on you. There are expectations that are higher for you because you are a person with a disability, or you are a woman, or you're a person of color that don’t exist for anyone else.
Frankly, there's an entire narrative that says, “You're not as good because we lowered the bar to let you in.” Or, “What was your SAT score? What was your LSAT score?” Again, the more that we can say, “How can you identify those barriers, whether they are internal or external, to your authenticity and to you feeling like you are safe?” That's a big part of it. Do I feel like I am safe and can express the different parts of me I would like to express in this space?
Paula Edgar: Mm-hmm. Thinking about places and spaces where there aren’t necessarily tables built for folks who are different—the work that you do, the things that we’re both committed to—diversity, equity, and inclusion, the conversation around that—the acronym DEI and the words diversity, equity, and inclusion—has shifted swiftly recently. Let’s put it that way, because I don’t know when this podcast is going to come out, but recently.
What would you say is the current state of DEI? What do you think are some of the challenges that we're going to have to navigate, and some of the opportunities that we have?
Michelle Silverthorn: What’s your analysis for DEI? I think that there are various groups of people who have different reasons for wanting to dismantle DEI. There are groups who want to do it because, much like affirmative action, much like CRT, much like any of those other acronyms that you can think of over the past 50 years, it's the same work. It's the same work of civil rights.
They think, "The workplace is not unfair. Everyone can get where they are based on merit. If you're not good enough to get there, then you shouldn't be there." That’s the story. That’s it. That is the entirety for them.
For me, I think you have to start with that. I feel like, for years, we have been giving this, "Here’s the business case for diversity. Here’s the business case." That’s fine. But the business case for diversity right now is to not do it because it’s getting you attracted by people who don’t want any of this work. So for me, you always have to start with, "Do you believe this workplace is unfairly tilted toward certain people for whatever those reasons might be?"
If you think, "No," then of course you’re not going to want any of this DEI work. You're not, because the workplace is not unfair. It is a fair meritocracy. Everyone gets what they get. However, if you are willing to say, "I'm looking at the data, I'm listening to the stories, I'm looking at the promotion tracks, and I can see that certain people have advantages in this workplace and there are certain people who have disadvantages in this workplace, then the work we are doing is to make that fair," that is when you are going to do this work.
You are never going to do this work if you don’t think the workplace is unfair or is unfairly tilted. It won’t happen for you. You will find a million business-case reasons to not do this work.
For me, I have to start there. I think we succeed at DEI—or whatever we want to call it now—if you are more able to show people, if you are better able to show folks, "Here are the data that show there is unfairness. Here are the interventions." Whatever they might be. They could be better evaluation sessions, structured work assignments, or different improvement plans, but here are the ways to make this fair.
Then let’s start with, "Do you want this workplace to be fair?" If again your answer is, "Eh, not really," then you're not going to do it. But if your answer is, "Yes, I would like this workplace to be fair," why do you want it to be fair? The more we can answer that question, the more we can say, "Here are the data that show it’s not fair," and that becomes the reason for our work.
I mean, I think that there are a lot of people who just don’t want it to be fair, and there are a lot of people who don’t think it’s unfair. Those are two different groups of people. Depending on who you want to talk to, figuring out how to make your best argument and which way you want to go.
Paula Edgar: Yeah. I love that you encapsulated it really, really, really well. The fact that I love branding, it’s my thing, and that I do everything through the lens of inclusion sits me right at the intersection of what is happening currently in the world. My reflection on it is similar.
Let’s take away the labels. Let’s take away the titles and talk about the experiences, the things that are actually happening because that’s what we should be navigating. In truth, I think there are a couple of pieces of benefit that come from that. But then you see more places where there may have been disparity than not. That’s great. It doesn’t take away from having identified disparity in other places before. It just says, "You know what? Actually, we didn’t realize that group had an issue too."
The more that we can create places where people can thrive and have an understanding of why they may not be, the more it makes sense. My challenge in what’s happening now is that it is not rooted in fact.
Michelle Silverthorn: No.
Paula Edgar: Right. That I’ve not experienced any place that has a true commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion that has not been better for it. The true commitment and the work that’s done after it—to get there and continue getting there—that’s always been a benefit. But to your point, because my grandmother used to say, "What do they call us now, Paula? Black? What do we call that?" Because language shifts. I kind of love that about it. So, the acronymization—I just made that up, y’all.
Michelle Silverthorn: Oh, look at—it's a Paula [inaudible].
Paula Edgar: Exactly. All of that may not have been to our benefit, but the root actions, the root lens is. I want people to realize that no matter who’s against it, as long as we have not been taken over by robots, we still have to navigate the people-ness of it all. People just want to be fully heard and fairly treated—period.
Michelle Silverthorn: The more you can build bigger coalitions of folks who say, "You know, exactly what you just said—rising tides do lift all boats," I’m not ignorant to part of the reason a lot of companies started doing this work in 2020 was because of George Floyd. A lot of the focus was on Black people in the workplace because that was the impetus. Then, when the backlash happened against all of that, they pulled back. And they’re still pulling back. And they’re still pulling back.
But it’s not like, "Y’all, this is brand-new stuff." We’ve been doing this work for decades. We have been doing it with all types—we’ve been doing it with women, with veterans, with people with disabilities.
If you small-picture it, then you're going to feel defeated, and you will feel despair. If you big-picture it—one of the best speeches I have ever heard was from a civil rights attorney. He was talking about an example of pushing a boulder up a hill. As you do this work, you push and you push and you push. Then the boulder is going to roll back down, but you keep going, and you push and you push and you push. Sometimes we get to the top of the hill, and we get great voting rights, and it’s wonderful. Then someone pushes it back down.
I just need more people to be pushing up than pushing down. Right now, it feels like more people are pushing it down, and there are fewer of us pushing it up. But the more we can get to push, push, push, then we can keep going up that hill. That is what I will advocate for and fight for as long as I can.
Paula Edgar: Everything Michelle just said—exactly that. We need to push as much as we can. What do you think about—you just mentioned that there’s a significant amount of organizations rolling back things, whether due to George Floyd or due to what’s happening in the administration, etc.—what do you do if you're an individual within those organizations who is committed to the work? What are your thoughts there?
Michelle Silverthorn: First of all, I think you are allowed to grieve, and I think you're allowed to mourn. I think you don’t need to go on LinkedIn and talk about all the things that you want. I just feel like there’s a lot of talking and a lot of timing just to be like, "I am sad. I am really sad about what is happening at my company. I want to just be sad for a while." And you can be sad. Yeah, I want you to get back up and go to action, but you can also be sad.
Then you need to figure out what’s really happening at your company. Are they rolling back the low-hanging fruit and keeping the high-value fruit in place? Are they rolling back all the fruit? Are they saying one thing out one side of their face and not with the other? Frankly, why did they choose to do the work in the first place?
Sorry, listen, you know I don’t like the business case. I feel like—because when the business case changes, the work changes. If you only care about the business case for diversity, it will always be a different business case because we can prioritize different things. Different CEOs, different executive committees—they all prioritize different things. Why are they doing this work? What are the specific reasons you think, especially in your role at this company, that this work should continue?
Now, let's think about what your role is. Your role could be running an ERG, you could be an executive, you could be a manager, you could be on the DEI committee. Whatever that work is, what are the actions and the responsibilities asked of you? What were they six months ago? What are they now? Can you guess what they might be six months from now?
Now that you've figured out where you were, where you are now, and where you're going to be, who are the people who will support you? Go find your people, whoever they might be. You have a conversation with them, which is, "Here is what I have accomplished. Here is what I have yet to accomplish. I would like to figure out where this stands in the company's priorities right now."
You're going to get some honest answers, but at least you have laid out the case for it. You've laid out what you've been doing for it. Now you are going to figure out what the next steps for you are going to be. I hope it is good steps. I hope that this is a place for you. I will always say, "You deserve a place that deserves you." That is where I want you to go next.
Paula Edgar: Great, that's great advice. I really love basically saying to people, "What are our values still? How does this show up?" Because I do think, again, with the branding lens, there's always going to be people saying, "We got to shift this. We got to make this sound more persuasive."
Well, I can tell you all, my recommendation is not to use DEI as much as you have before. Spell out the letters. Spell out all the words: diversity, equity, inclusion. Because most people aren't against those words and what they mean. They're against what has been bastardized as the three letters of DEI.
But to that end, if the work is similar and is having similar impact, what you call it matters less. However, it still does matter, right? The words still have meaning. So, I don't want you to say, "Well, we don’t do DEI here." Yeah, you do. Because you have people there.
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, it's what it comes down to. It comes down to the people. If you are hiring people, you want them to be successful at your company. That’s the end of the story. Here are all the interventions that will be allowed to make that happen. Why are you hiring someone if you think they're going to leave in two years because they can't cut it? Why are you bringing them in the first place?
Give them the support that they need to be successful here. In every one of my programs now, when I get to the section on belonging, what I do is, after I talk about all the barriers, I ask people a question using—not Mentimeter, because I couldn’t make that work. I use Slido. Paula uses Mentimeter. I ask them a question, which is: "Think of a time when you have felt alone or excluded. What words come to mind? How did that make you feel?"
And then I ask them: "Think of a time a leader or a co-worker helped you feel included. What actions did they take?" They're such simple actions. They listened to me. They shared their stories with me. They introduced me to some people. They are really good and easy habits that we can all form if we're willing to do it.
Paula Edgar: Right. The answer I always think is that you get from your investment when there is investment. You're going to get back what you put into it. For leaders, I actually think—on one hand, I'm like, "Gosh, this is a really challenging time," because I think that's just true, but it's also a really easy time to show who you are as a leader.
Are you someone who's empathetic? Are you somebody who is trustworthy and has courage? These are the things that we need to see, and also for people to be. And are you vulnerable? Because I don't want leaders to be like, "Everything's fine, nothing's wrong." I want you to say, "It is wild out here, and we got to figure all these things out. But I want to hear what it is that you need in order to thrive here." Because the biggest business case is that it costs so much more when people leave. That's the biggest thing. No matter what. No matter what.
Michelle Silverthorn: Right. Are you going to be a leader who's going to hide and say, "I'm just going to wait for this to roll over me and not do anything, and I'm going to try and change all this language and delete our websites and scrub any evidence that we ever did this?"
They will find you. They will find you, they will find you. I know that you want them to not find you, but they will find you. Because what you are doing, no matter what you call it, is not what they want. Whoever the "they" is and whatever that is, I want you to think through, "What is it that I am doing that benefits this organization, that benefits the people here?"
Also, Paula and I are both lawyers. Trust me. Listen, I know that you have been spending a lot of time with your GCs. Y'all weren’t doing anything illegal in the first place, okay? Listen, you were fine. The laws have not changed, okay?
You keep working and ensuring that you are following the law, that you are putting into place actions that are legal, and if you can continue doing that, then keep going on the path because you know why it matters. Figure out why it matters for you, your people, and your organization. There is your business case right there, fine. We can use that for the business case. There you go.
Paula Edgar: Yeah. It's so true. I think that that is a core piece because my perception about this is—all of those pendulum shifts that we see now, for folks who are really truly not committed, there's always going to be shifts in administration and all these different things.
The pivot back, when people realize that you weren’t who you thought you were when they were committed, is going to be much more detrimental than the shift that you do to assuage the current situation. It's got to be, "This is who we are, and that's what we stick to," versus, "We're scared."
I mean, listen, I think running on fear in anything never works. It's got to be, calm down, let's be thoughtful and strategic. Let's make sure that we are aligning. But also to say, at some point, you gotta—my mother used to say, "Buck up, Buttercup." You gotta buck up, Buttercup, because who are you?
Michelle Silverthorn: Who are you? Who are you going to be? I want to take this time also to be like, “Listen to the people in your organization. There are people who are agreeing with what the administration is doing because they feel like they have been overlooked, they have been separated, they've been left out. Listen to them, talk to them, get them feeling included and they're part of this work. What are the actions that we have been taking that are making you feel less than? What is it that we could do differently?”
I am all about coalitions. The more you can build coalitions, the more you can build communities, the more support you are going to have for whatever comes next. Please don't forget to listen to people—both the ones who already agree with you and the ones who do not.
Then, where are the common values? Where are the common interests? Where are the spaces where you can intersect? There will always be conflict, y’all. My values don't match my husband's values all the time, and we are the closest people to each other.
Paula Edgar: Same.
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, there are what—10,000 people in your company? Not everyone's values are going to be the same. But where can they intersect? Where are the spaces where we can find—maybe we don't have the same underlying needs, but we do have the same interests. We want this organization to be successful. We want this law firm to thrive. How can we best achieve that?
The more you can have people find those common interests, the less you have to be worried about, “Okay, where is that pendulum going to shift tomorrow or next week or on Friday?” Because you've got your core groups in your own organization working to make it successful.
Paula Edgar: It's true. It really is how personal branding and branding, in general, align with inclusion. It's that, when you know—like, you cannot have a good brand that you have shaped to be a strong brand if you don't actually know who you are.
If you don't have an understanding of your values, your non-negotiables, what your goals are—all of that is a core piece of being able to shape your narrative. For both organizations and individuals, that is usually fostered by either collaboration with or exposure to people who are different.
Michelle Silverthorn: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All the time, all 100% of the time.
Paula Edgar: What do you think, when you're putting your magic hat on, what do you—
Michelle Silverthorn: So many magic hats on.
Paula Edgar: As the vision, what's the future for workplace culture and leadership and inclusion? We need your words. What is the future?
Michelle Silverthorn: I think that it's going to be more skills-based. I think it's going to be less like big, out-of-the-box trainings and more, "How can you be a better manager? How can you be a better partner? How can you ensure that people here are on a track to success?" Because that is what we want.
I think there has to be a lot of focusing on—I know, I mean, I'm a millennial, and you're a Gen Xer, and I feel like every time a generation comes in, there's so much talk about "What does this generation want?" Now we're on Gen Z, and then it's really my kids, the Alphas.
But "What is it that your young people in your organization want?" When I talk about thrive, the very, very first thing I say is, “You have to tell me wehat you want.” So if you are a leader or a manager, do they want more one-on-ones? Do they want better feedback? Do they want a space where they can talk about how can they communicate better with each other, better problem-solving?
I think if you are going to focus on inclusion, we have to focus on "What are the skills required to be more inclusive?" Because I think skill-based trainings and skill-based work is exactly where we are going. We have seen that over the last five years. The more that we can focus on "How can I grow my skills? How can I use those skills here and wherever else my career might take me?"—that is where the future of inclusion is for me right now.
It is across coalitions, across communities, across identity groups, and really finding the skills that can make me more empathetic toward all of those—not just my own individual group or my own identity group right now.
Paula Edgar: I love that. Do you think that there's still going to be a space for connection around affinity?
Michelle Silverthorn: I hope so. I mean, I felt lonely at work because I didn't have an affinity group. But I didn't know—there was one Black partner at my law firm when I was there.
Without having my first law firm and without having that experience of knowing that there are other people around me, and I'm not crazy. That thing happened to me, and it did happen. It also happened to you.
But also, I mean, a lot of the companies that you work in are big places, and finding a space where—maybe you're a first-gen lawyer, and that's what you have in common. Maybe you're all Michigan fans, and that's what you have in common.
Maybe you're a Black woman immigrant who comes in from a country and is trying to find, "What do other Black women experience at this company? Because I have experiences, and I'm not sure who else I can talk to about them." That's what affinity groups are. They are spaces in communities where we can listen to each other, we can be compassionate toward each other, and then, any changes that we think need to be made based on our collective experiences, we now have a collective voice to speak up about them.
They're not danger zones. They're not ways to attack other people. They're communities. I think, oh gosh, community for me is my word, my buzzword for this year, my buzzword for the next 10 years. We are losing communities, we are losing institutions, we are losing all of it.
What we are seeing instead are communities that are not grounded in kindness, empathy, and inclusion. The more that we can rebuild those, the better we're going to be—including all of our companies and law firms.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, I agree with you. I think that we learned from our experience with COVID collectively that being individually focused and not community-focused is the detriment to organizations. It has to be that we understand how we connect with each other, how we all add to the value of the collective.
I agree with you that community, both internally and externally, is such a big part of how people actually do thrive. I just wanted to double-click to say that for folks who are like, "Oh my goodness, ERGs... they are just sitting there chanting together."—it's not. I think it's actually a really great place to find and have an amplification of some skill sets that you wouldn't necessarily see in people's everyday thing.
Good leaders are going to look to some of those places of the narrowing to see, "Oh my goodness, I have the ability to see some of the light shine on this person in a different way." That's powerful. It can be for everybody, which is why I love the fact that—I call it the rise of the ally, the good ally.
When you allow spaces for allies to be included, they learn, and then they become better advocates. Everybody then, to your point about the boats rising, it all becomes a better thing.
Michelle Silverthorn: Yeah. I wanted to double-click again on what you just said. One of the things I remember—because I went to two majority-white institutions, Princeton and Michigan. I love both of my schools. But I remember when I met people—law students and lawyers—who had gone to majority Black or HBCU law schools and undergrads and how they were skilled and trained in how to work in workplaces where they were the minority, the lessons they learned, the actions they learned, how they learned to talk and communicate, and do all that stuff, and advocate for themselves—those are things I never learned. I've never learned any of those.
Again, for affinity groups, that skill part of it, that building up your skillset—that is a good thing, okay? That is a great thing. That's something that we should all lean in on.
Paula Edgar: Absolutely, shout out to Spelman because that's where my daughter is. I had to let that go. All right, so I knew that I was going to feel better and inspired by this conversation, but I have three things I have to ask before we close, which I ask everyone. First being, what do you do for fun, Michelle?
Michelle Silverthorn: Well, let me tell you about my VR headset. I will say, I do love my VR headset workouts. If anyone's listening and they do Supernatural, you can find me—I'm obsessed with it. I hate exercise and I hate working out. I have never, ever, ever, ever done any kind of working out for longer than two weeks in the new year.
This thing, I do for 90 minutes a day and I love it. It's hitting targets, it's boxing—it's the best. Next time I see you, I'll bring my headset. I bring my headset with me everywhere. When I see you next, we can do this.
Paula Edgar: I need to, yes.
Michelle Silverthorn: It's the best. But I travel. I travel a lot. I mean, I travel for work, but also, my husband and I, we travel all across the world. This year, we're going to Korea, to Seoul, to Malaysia, and to Singapore. Then for Christmas, we're going to South Africa and Egypt. I know, I love it.
Next spring, we're going to Tokyo. And we take our kids. There are trips we take our kids on—not the Southeast Asia trip this year, that's just us—but the later ones are.
But yeah, listen, I grew up on a very tiny island. As soon as I got off, I was like, "Listen, we can go see the whole world if I can." That's what I do. I do Supernatural, I travel, and I got a new puppy, which we can talk about puppies and whether people should just get two-year-old dogs instead. But I love my puppy.
Paula Edgar: My husband always says, "I'm not going to get a child I can't get rid of.” So I can't get a puppy.
Michelle Silverthorn: You should let him talk to my husband. They can have a nice conversation about wives who make choices to get puppies, so that's funny.
Paula Edgar: Tell me this, what is an aspect of your brand that you will never compromise on?
Michelle Silverthorn: Oh, that's an interesting question. I have not thought about an aspect of my brand that I will not compromise on. I will never, ever compromise that we have to be kind and respectful to each other. For the seven years I worked for the Illinois Supreme Court, we called ourselves Two Civility, and a lot of the work I found I was doing was that civility, and being civil, isn’t just because you want to be nice to each other, it's the basis of our civilization. We are civil, and we have norms, and we respect each other because without it, civilization collapses. Hello.
So that is an aspect—inclusion matters. Compassion, empathy, respect, and civility—they matter, and I cannot ever, ever compromise that.
Paula Edgar: I'm going to ask you this next question, but it's kind of tongue-in-cheek because I've actually seen this happen.
Branding Room Only is a play on the term standing room only because I am clever. I want to know—what do you believe is your magic that will have a room filled with people with only standing room to experience about you? That being said, I've been in a room with you, and it was definitely standing room only. I want to see what you got to say anyway. What is it?
Michelle Silverthorn: Wait, repeat the question again because I didn’t get it the first time.
Paula Edgar: What is your magic? What do you believe is something that people would be in a room with only standing room to experience about you?
Michelle Silverthorn: I mean, other than my stories, that’s it. I tell stories. I mean, I’m not a coach, I’m not a consultant. I am a speaker. I do keynotes, and I do workshops, and that’s all I do. I do 120 of them a year, and I love it because I get to tell stories that create empathy. I get to tell stories that people can see themselves in, and they can see, "What would I have done differently?" They can cry—and they always cry—and they can laugh, and it matters to them.
So, the new Thrive program that I’m doing right now, I open it up by having people do a competition about musicals. So, you have to identify what song is from what musical and who’s the singer of it.
They do that because it’s all about the I want songs. "What do you want out of this career?" But that’s what keeps people engaged. It’s the energy, it’s the vibrancy, it’s knowing that I will always tell you stories that you can leave with and remember.
You may not remember my Top Seven Takeaways, but you will always remember my stories. That is my brand. That’s always my brand—telling stories and making people feel like, "You got this. You can do this. You are the hero of your own narrative, and you are going to do this."
Paula Edgar: I love that. Well, I knew this conversation was going to go by quickly, and of course—
Michelle Silverthorn: I can't believe we're done. This is crazy.
Paula Edgar: I know. You are more than welcome to come back anytime you want to talk about whatever you would like to talk about.
Everybody, go tell a friend to listen to this podcast. Tell them that we are two separate people. Tell them that we believe inclusion matters. Tell them that we believe that we should be able to thrive at work. Download, share all of those good things, and there’s going to be all the information about Michelle and how you can reach out to her in the show notes for today’s episode.
Michelle, thank you for being here. And everybody—stand by your brand, y’all. Bye.
