The Flexibility Advantage: Redefining Leadership and Culture with Manar Sweillam Morales
Episodes You Might Also Like
Featured
Description
Before flexibility was a trending topic, Manar Sweillam Morales was already out here reimagining how we work—and more importantly, why we work the way we do.
In this episode of Branding Room Only, I sit down with Manar, founder and CEO of the Diversity & Flexibility Alliance, to talk about building workplace cultures that actually work—for people and for business. Manar is a national thought leader, speaker, and now author of The Flexibility Paradigm, a powerful guide for leaders ready to evolve how they think about success, leadership, and work itself.
We get into:
Why flexibility isn’t a perk—it’s a leadership requirement
How mindset drives culture more than policy ever could
The connection between personal identity, professional values, and brand
What psychological safety really looks like in a human-centered workplace
Why evolving > adapting (and what most leaders get wrong)
And yes, Beyoncé comes up—because of course she does
This conversation is for anyone who’s thinking about how they lead, how they show up, and how to build a brand and a workplace that centers both purpose and possibility.
Chapters
1:12 – Manar’s definition of personal branding, how she describes herself, and the quotes and songs that hype her up
4:31 – Growing up Egyptian-American and learning to define identity on her own terms
7:35 – How Manar’s personal need for workplace flexibility fueled her professional mission
9:57 – What COVID exposed about flexibility, why it was never “new,” and how leaders need to evolve, not just adapt
16:26 – Why human-centered leadership and psychological safety are critical to effective workplace culture
22:22 – Flexibility as a driver of possibility—for employees, organizations, and communities
25:01 – Flexibility as a shared responsibility, not a free-for-all
29:10 – How to create a workplace culture where everyone has room to thrive
32:01 – The real challenge: organizational resistance to change and innovation
37:12 – How Manar leveraged her expertise to promote her book and expand her influence
42:44 – Advice for aspiring authors: use your book to elevate your impact and brand
45:09 – Key takeaways on branding, leadership, and defining success on your own terms
48:26 – What Manar does for fun, the values she refuses to compromise, and what would draw a standing-room-only crowd
Connect With Manar Sweillam Morales
Manar Sweillam Morales is a national thought leader and visionary on building human-centered workplace cultures at the intersection of diversity, flexibility, and well-being. As the founder and CEO of the Diversity & Flexibility Alliance, she’s on a mission to empower organizations to unlock their full potential by creating inclusive environments, implementing flexible work strategies effectively, and prioritizing holistic employee well-being.
For over 18 years, Manar has been collaborating with leading organizations to drive meaningful culture change and business results. Through the Alliance’s cutting-edge research, strategic advisory services, and vibrant peer network, she and her team provide practical, customizable solutions that help members attract and retain diverse talent, enhance engagement and innovation, and navigate the ever-changing world of work with agility and purpose.
Manar brings a wealth of expertise from her background as an employment litigator and adjunct faculty member at Georgetown University. She's received recognition for her thought leadership and impact as a recipient of the President’s Lifetime Achievement Award and a member of the President’s Council of Cornell Women and the International Women’s Forum. As a passionate advocate for inclusion, flexibility, and well-being, she’s committed to creating a future where everyone and every organization can thrive and reach their full potential.
Diversity & Flexibility Alliance | LinkedIn | Manar Morales on LinkedIn | Email: manar@DFAlliance.com
Mentioned In The Flexibility Advantage: Redefining Leadership and Culture with Manar Sweillam Morales
The Flexibility Paradigm: Humanizing the Workplace for Productivity, Profitability, and Possibility by Manar Sweillam Morales
Branding Room Only Episode: How Parenthood Shifts Your Personal Brand in the Workplace with Lori Mihalich-Levin
Curated Resources from Paula
Sign up for Paula’s Upcoming Webinars
Learn More About Paula's Personal Branding Strategy Session Offer
Subscribe to The Branding Room Only on YouTube
Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by PGE Consulting Group LLC.
PGE Consulting Group LLC empowers individuals and organizations to lead with purpose, presence, and impact. Specializing in leadership development and personal branding, we offer keynotes, custom programming, consulting, and strategic advising—all designed to elevate influence and performance at every level.
Founded and led by Paula Edgar, our work centers on practical strategies that enhance professional development, strengthen workplace culture, and drive meaningful, measurable change.
To learn more about Paula and her services, go to www.paulaedgar.com or contact her at info@paulaedgar.com, and follow Paula Edgar and the PGE Consulting Group LLC on LinkedIn.
Call to Action
Follow & Review: If you enjoyed this episode, leave a 5-star review on your favorite podcast platform!
Want more branding insights? Join Paula’s newsletter for expert tips and exclusive content! Subscribe Here
Transcript
Paula Edgar: Welcome to the Branding Room Only podcast, where we share career stories, strategies, and lessons learned on how industry leaders and influencers have built their personal brands. Now, let's get started with the show.
Hi everybody, it's Paula Edgar, your host of Branding Room Only. I'm excited to have conversations about personal branding, how people have gotten there, their advice for you, and how to navigate yours. Today, my guest is fantastic. My guest today is Manar Sweillam Morales, and she is a national thought leader on building human-centered workplace cultures at the intersection of diversity, flexibility, and well-being. As the founder and CEO of the Diversity and Flexibility Alliance, she partners with organizations to create inclusive, adaptive workplaces that attract and retain top talent. A sought-after speaker and author of The Flexibility Paradigm, Manar’s expertise helps companies drive meaningful culture change and business success. Manar, welcome to the Branding Room.
Manar Morales: Thank you, Paula. I'm excited to be here with you.
Paula Edgar: Me too, me too. Let's jump in. What does personal branding mean to you? How would you define it?
Manar Morales: I think, to me, it's really the essence of who you are. I think about it more in terms of identity—who I am, identify, what do I stand for, what do I believe in, in a combination of what I do and kind of impact I want to make in the world.
Paula Edgar: I love that. Speaking of impact in the world, how would you describe yourself in three words or short phrases?
Manar Morales: That’s such a hard question because I was thinking, "In just three words? I don’t know." It might sound a little Pollyannish, I think, but for me, empathy is at the heart of it. Empathy and compassion—I hope I exhibit those in the world. The ability to see the good—that's not one word, but it’s a phrase. I think that idea of being able to see the good wherever we go and whatever in people and in the world. The last one I would say is I describe myself as evolving. I do feel like I'm constantly evolving and learning. I think that we all should be constantly evolving.
Paula Edgar: Oh, a hundred percent. I also love all of the things you just mentioned are things that we need very deeply right now. Very, very deeply. We need empathy and compassion and we need to see the good and we need to evolve. Those are right on time, descriptors of you and what we need in this world. Do you have a favorite quote or motto?
Manar Morales: I do. I will say in terms of quotes, I'm a big fan of quotes. I do, my kids are always like, "Your mom, you're always sending us quotes." And they love it, because then they send me some too. But I will say that something that has deeply shaped is the quote of, "If you think you can or you think you can't, either way, you're right." I believe that was a Henry Ford quote, but I do very much believe in the power of mindset and the power of one's belief in what you are capable of and that the mind is a powerful tool. That is one that I think has always shaped me and my work.
Paula Edgar: Oh yeah, that's awesome. What about a song? What's your hype song so if they're going to get full Manar [inaudible], what song is playing in your head or what song do you use when you need to get a little [inaudible]?
Manar Morales: Yeah, so I'll tell you, it depends on the timing. Sometimes I'm playing, I Can Do It With a Broken Heart lately with Taylor Swift, but I will say the one song that I always go back to is Beyonce's song, I Was Here. That song gives me chills every time and also just is like a good reminder for me before I go out and do something hoping to do and what mark do I want to leave?
Paula Edgar: Yeah. No, I think you're the first person of all of my guests who's picked that song. We were putting together a playlist. I deeply love that song as well, because it reminds me of impact and legacy. We think so. Oh, I love that.
Manar Morales: Right. I mean, I think that song, like every single word I like, I'm like, “Yes.” Also the idea of no regret. Like that idea of have I left it all out there? Like if I'm going to go on stage or if I'm going to be with my family, did I leave it all out there for them? I'm not holding back. That song gives me chills every time.
Paula Edgar: Yes, and my audience knows that I'll never not love Beyonce. There's that. Tell me, where did you grow up? How do you think that shaped you?
Manar Morales: Yeah, so I grew up in New York, born and raised in different parts of New York. Upstate New York, born, moved to Long Island when I was about six and grew up there in Long Island. I was born of Egyptian parents.
My parents immigrated to this country in 1962 from Egypt for higher education. My dad was coming doing a master's program, first PhD program. My mom also, they moved the day after they got married, which is like, there's so much power in that. Not enough time for today. But I will say, I think growing up with Egyptian parents who always instilled with us a sense of pride, there was never like you're hiding who you are, they were like, “You're Egyptian and you're very proud of it.” I grew up in a school and an environment with friends that did not make me feel in any way that I wasn't proud of who I was.
But it was interesting because I think when I was around eight, so we went back frequently to Egypt. I'm the youngest of three siblings. My siblings are six and seven years older. By the time I was with my family, we were going back for like a summer or a couple of weeks to Cairo. I remember the first time I went back and I was with other kids, in the US, I would always say, “I'm Egyptian, I'm Egyptian.” When I would go back, I remember the one time being really proud, like “I'm going to go back and I'm going to be with other people who are just like me.” This was my mind thinking this.
I remember I went back and I was around kids my age and they were like, “Oh, my gosh, it's so cool that you're American.” So the idea of where I was suddenly in this environment where they were saying, "Oh, you're American, that's so cool," the lesson I took away from this, and it honestly did not leave me, was the idea that I had to define my identity for myself, that the only thing that had changed about me was the lens that somebody else had seen me through, but I was the same person.
It really instilled in me this idea that if I don't define it for myself, it will forever be changing, because it'll change based upon whosoever lens is in front of me. I don't know, I reflect on that time. Really, it has really deeply touched me ever since that moment. Even though I was at a young age, it's still a core memory for me.
Paula Edgar: That's so interesting because, obviously, when we think about branding, which I'm passionate about, it is part of what you say and part what they say, and how it comes together. But to your point about always evolving, it always shifts. But I love the, whatever age you were determining and saying, I am going to define for me what it is, I love that, I love that, I love that, wow.
I can imagine the link from that, the how it shapes you part of the question because of what you do and thinking about defining and diversity, and even flexibility piece, like understanding what you want, I love that. Tell me about your professional journey.
Manar Morales: Yeah. I think on the flexibility side, it was very personal. I would say I have a personal story with flexibility and I have a professional story with flexibility. The personal side of it is how it has impacted me personally when I needed it. That was when I was an employment litigator and I had my first son.
Really for a moment thought, there was one thing I thought when I was pregnant, like I was like, “Not going to take a break, going to keep going, keep going, keep going,” and there was another feeling I had when I had him and that a lot of things that were happening at the time that just made me feel like I want to keep working. I want to keep doing this. I want to keep litigating, but I want to do it in a way that meets what I have going on personally too.
It was really a moment of redefining for me what success looked like. That was my personal. I needed the flexibility and I knew what I could accomplish, but it wasn't in the traditional way that was happening at that time.
Fast forward to, I left one firm to really embark on, "I don't want to give up what I do," even though the advice at the time was, "Oh, do consulting work. Do other things that—" and I was like, "No, I actually enjoy litigating. How can I do that and do it on a reduced-hour schedule?"
There was this feeling of, I know I can find it, even though I don't necessarily see it yet. That was my—and I did. I found it. Then I became an adjunct. I pieced together really what success looked like for me as a career.
Then people would come up to me and say, "I wouldn't have left if I could have done it the way that you did it." I kept thinking, there's nothing special about what I've done. We can create this model. I saw what it did for the firm I was working in. I saw what it did for my clients. I saw all of these things.
That was my personal journey with Flexibility and then starting the professional journey of really studying it and looking at it and examining what's happening in the workplace. What role could it play?
Paula Edgar: Well, I mean, as I was thinking about your bio, what you've done, what you've established, you just said in your personal story, that was something that people hadn't been doing, truly, at least not the way that they are even contemplating doing it now. But I can only imagine when COVID hit, as terrible as that was—
Manar Morales: Yeah.
Paula Edgar: Terrible, and it was. All of you know I'm an extrovert, and I suffered. But you had already conceptualized and thought about what it meant to be in a workplace where people have to be accommodated, etc.
Manar Morales: I know. I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, Flexibility was—" I'm like, it's not new. We've been doing this. I started the Alliance in 2012, was looking at Flexibility starting in 2006, like way before, and I've been talking about this, which helped.
I mean, I think it helped with credibility. I had a lot of our members who were like, "Wait, you've been talking about this long before this ever happened." But I think what COVID did—I remember two weeks before COVID hit, I was at The Breakers, talking to a roundtable of managing partners and law firm chairs about the business case for Flexibility. Like, nobody knew in that room that two weeks later—I was just trying to convince them that there was a business case for Flexibility. Then two weeks later, everybody had to deal with it.
We're talking about branding. I think what COVID did, it branded Flexibility. Suddenly, Flexibility was the glue that kept all of our organizations going. Like, without Flexibility and without leaning into it—I say, the way that 9/11 forever changed how we travel, I think COVID will forever change how we work. It isn't about going back to anything. It's around, how do we look and how do we see the possibility of Flexibility in a world where we are all distributed in some ways?
Paula Edgar: Yes, and we're going to definitely jump in talking more about that. I want to make sure we put a pin in that because I often hear people who are so deeply invested in going back.
Anyway, so tell me about The Flexibility Paradigm, why did you decide to write it? And what are some of the things and insights that you wanted to share in the book?
Manar Morales: Yeah, I mean, for me, I think what COVID did, it was that moment of time where I saw, we were busier than ever, and we were having real conversations. When I talked about that rebranding of Flexibility, it was because it was a moment where organizations who would have never done that suddenly needed to lean into it. People who would have never worked flexibly suddenly were working flexibly.
I would laugh when I would have leaders come to me and say, "Who would have thought this works?" I'm like, "Yeah, who would have thought?" Whatever it takes to bring people to a conversation. But it was a real paradigm shift. It was a real time for us to see.
The reason I wrote the book was because I wanted to cement it. I wanted to say that, first of all, I was really worried of seeing beyond COVID to say, yes, do I think it will forever change how we work? I do. Do I think people are going to go back? I do.
There's a forgetting curve that happens. There is a piece of it which is, oh, when I needed you to be like this, I did this, and now I no longer need it, and I suddenly want to go back—and that goes to, I think organizations and leaders adapted, but some didn't evolve, and there's a difference.
There's an adaption of, “I have to adapt to my circumstances, and so I'm in reactive mode, and I'm doing this because I have to,” but my thinking about it didn't evolve. I think for real change to happen, you have to have both the adaptive behaviors, but you also have to have the evolving behaviors of what's the mindset shift.
What are we thinking really about flexibility? What is flexibility and what it isn't? So the book was an opportunity for me to say, let's actually get really clear on all of the mindset shifts that have to happen, all of the business case that's there, what does flexibility make possible?
Is there a different way we can think about it? Because I think the failures that we see aren't a failure of flexibility. What actually it is, it's a failure of implementation. People aren't doing it in the way that you need to do in order for it to be successful.
Paula Edgar: I mean, that's a whole word you just said. What I am, what I'm stuck in is your reflection about adapting and evolving. I think that you just wrote out what has been frustrating the heck out of me about folks because I'm like, “I don't understand, like, you saw that we could do this.” But it is not the seeing, it's the, did I go along, and its resistance to evolving, thinking about my mindset and what can and can't be done and how things can happen.
Manar Morales: Right.
Paula Edgar: Oh, that's powerful.
Manar Morales: Thank you. But I do think that that's where we need to have the conversations. I talk about leadership paradigm shifting of, we don't just need adaptive leaders, I need evolving leaders. I need leaders who are thinking really differently. The ones that have been successful are the ones that if you listen to the way they talk about flexibility, if you listen to the way they talk about culture, their mindsets evolved.
It's part of the—we have a framework in the book, and I start with purpose first to reflect because I'm like, “If we don't address the mindset first, then we're never”—I can talk about the adaptive practices, but that comes much later in the framework. Because unless I can get you to evolve, I can't get you to the practices.
I'm always around, how do I get you to think differently first about it before I can get you to tell you what the practices or the policies should look like?
Paula Edgar: I mean, that's such a deep reflection. And then when I think about how I'm often thinking about leaders and branding, and how I say that a leader without growth mindset is not leading at this moment in the time that we need, those things connect for me.
It makes me think—it is one thing to be thoughtful and careful, and I think we work with a lot of lawyers and we risk it first and all those other things, but that once you have the information and the information isn't clear—
Manar Morales: There's so much there.
Paula Edgar: It’s like, okay, to not evolve is another—it's branding as opposed to a brand builder.
Manar Morales: Yeah, no, I do. I think even with branding, it's like, you can tell me all of the practices that I have to do, and I know, and I might adapt it. But if I haven't evolved by thinking about what's the value to me in all of this, then I'm likely to go off track.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, yes. Oh, that's so good. That's so good. The book talks about humanizing the workplace. It makes me laugh thinking about it because the workplace is human.
Manar Morales: Yeah.
Paula Edgar: The workplace is human. But doing it for both productivity and profitability. Talk to me about what that means about flexibility and well-being in the workplace and how you believe that connects to both those things.
Manar Morales: I think one of the things that COVID did was we couldn't unsee what was happening in people's lives. For the first time, what was happening in the world and affecting our businesses were affecting people at home. I couldn't unsee that.
Before, people could go through tragic things or people could be struggling and they would have to hide it or shed it before going into certain workplaces. I think it was one of those times where it was impacting everyone—we couldn't unsee it.
So for the first time, on a major scale at least in more recent history, people had to see people as people and not just as employees, as humans and not just as employees. I would talk to people and they would say, for the first time, I'm having to start my team meetings with, "On a scale of one to 10, how are you feeling?" Like, "Tell me what's going on in your—like, tell me how you're managing or tell me what you have at home going on so we can help figure out how we're all working."
Or frankly, leaders who never had to care about it, even for themselves, were suddenly like, "Oh my gosh, I have a partner or a spouse who's running a COVID clinic, and I'm in charge of four kids now for the first time that I wasn’t." There were suddenly things and people were experiencing things in lives that they hadn't before. That was the part of like, I think it brought that human-centered aspect to life in places where sometimes it didn't exist. Not saying it never existed.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, I think that the challenge is that, and we know this from the legal profession, and I'm sure in other professions as well, but definitely the legal profession, what's sobering is that before, it didn't exist for a lot of folks.
A lot of folks were like, “I'm never thinking about this. Actually, I don't care.” I remember when I first started consulting that somebody was talking to me about how associates at law firms were saying how they had to not go to one of their friends' weddings because they got an assignment.
Manar Morales: Yeah.
Paula Edgar: I was like… And because we weren't thinking, and then all of a sudden, to your point, we were meeting kids—I met everybody's kid on Zoom just like that. I met everybody's pet. Cats love Zoom. You're right. We had to exercise muscles that we didn't necessarily think about before.
I can say for myself, even the fact that I helped people support people in other places, I was like, “Shoot.” My son was, like, in elementary school. I was like, “Oh God, this is terrible.” I would share. I'd be like, "This is terrible. Just so you know, my kid is upstairs, doing African dance and yoga, and it's terrible." Wow.
Manar Morales: My son was doing PE with the camera off. That was my favorite one where I walked in. I was like, “I don't even know what you're doing. You're lying there, and you're instructors, like the PE teachers.”
There were those aspects. I think the idea of saying “What does flexibility do for us?” It does create an environment where we can create psychological safety, not just about what's going on at work, but can we create psychological safety for people about what's going on in their life?
Like, can we invite people to be able to say, "I have this going on and this going on?" Or can I structure—especially in law firm environments, I think, where the demands can be so strenuous and it can feel like a 24/7 environment—is that, how do we give people tools to help even manage and align that in their lives?
Everybody has a life, and everybody needs flexibility. I think that's one of the things I try to really hone in on, which is, it is not just for women. It is not just for people with children. We have to de-gender, de-stigmatize, de-parent it in order for it to work. Everybody has needs for it. It just looks different in terms of what those needs are.
Paula Edgar: I think that's a really, really great point. My listeners will remember when I spoke with Lori Levin about support post-having kids and how you can think when you're having kids, like, “I know what it's going to be like.” Then to your point when you were saying that before, and then you have no idea what's going to happen and how you're going to feel and how you need to navigate. Having folks really think about the brand shift that comes with all of the different roles that you take on and the life changes that you have is an important one.
But when you were just talking about how it's everybody, I think that is so key because so many places will be like, “Oh, well, you can do this assignment because you don't have any kids.” Or you may keep them there and just like, hello? I also still need to, I don't know, live.
Manar Morales: I have a life, I remember talking about that during COVID because people would say, “Well, I want to protect that person because they're taking care of kids and they have all this.” I was talking to an associate who said, "I'm in a studio, it is my home, it is my gym, it is my office, and pretty soon, it's like my prison cell." That was so incredibly powerful to me. We are all in different needs for what we have.
I think the important piece of it is just, let's not make assumptions about people—what they want. Let's also not assume that somebody becomes a parent and they suddenly want to work a reduced-hour schedule, or all of those things. Why don't we ask? Why don't we ask what people want and need in order to make it both work? So the book is around that sort of—I talk about the productivity and the profitability, but also—the last line is possibility.
Because I think that last P in the book, in the title, is to lean into what does flexibility make possible for us as an organization? What does it make possible for our people? What does it make possible for our clients? What does it make possible for the greater community? What does it make possible for the world?
Paula Edgar: What are some of the reflections that you have? When you think about some of those possibilities—because I know you've worked with a lot of different organizations and even some of the recent things you've done for the book—what are some of the possibilities that maybe are not as clear or upfront that folks may not really think about that come from focusing on and prioritizing flexibility into our workplace?
Manar Morales: I had one managing partner who said to me, "I didn't realize the impact that it would have on people's families." He said he was at a—I don't know if it was a holiday—it was some meeting where it was some, like, party or something where there were spouses invited, partners invited, everybody was there, family members. He said, "I had family members come up to me and say, 'Thank you so much for what you have done around flexibility within the organization.'" He was like, "I just wasn't anticipating that aspect of it."
I think there is power to say like, what does it make for somebody who feels like, "I had this opportunity to stay in an organization and be there at the same time for all of the things that I want to do?" I think that idea—or even more clients being attracted to an organization to say, "Wow, you actually see people for who they are," I think there's power in those stories of what has this made possible for us? That's one of my favorite questions to ask in any environment—what does this make possible?
Paula Edgar: Yeah, no, I think that it's a core thing because the bad brand around it, it's just like, nobody wants to be in the place, so they don't want to be there. But the true authentic place is that we all could use a little space to do the life that we are living for whatever reason.
I think about folks who have become caretakers—not necessarily parents, but caretakers to other family members, etc., post-COVID—or just generally people who are in places where they may be suffering with something that they have to take care of. They want to be able to go to the doctor. There are so many reasons why we should be thoughtful about this. That connects folks to the organization because they feel like they’re cared for as opposed to not.
Manar Morales: That somebody actually—that they matter. Don't we all want to feel like we matter? I think people think when we talk about that rebranding of flexibility, there's a lot of misperceptions around flexibility, around what it is and what it's not. I talk about flexibility as a responsibility.
I think a lot of people don't see, I'm like, “It's not a free-for-all. Flexibility is a responsibility on the part of organizations. You have to create the infrastructure, the structure around it, the policies, the practices, all of that, invest in technology, all of those things in order to make it work.”
It's a responsibility for leaders who have to think about, how do I lead in this environment? It's not a policy change. It's a whole culture shift. How do I lead in this environment? How am I paying attention? How am I being inclusive? How am I not leaning into proximity bias?
All of those things are important. How do I think about not just what my own needs are, but what are the needs of my team? What are the needs of the organization? What are the needs of clients? And then it's a responsibility on the part of individuals, too. I think you have to show up in a different way. You have to be thinking about, "Am I being responsive? Am I being productive?"
All of those things, I'm like, "It's not a trade-off for performance." A lot of misperceptions exist around there—that flexibility means I can do whatever. I can spend my day doing this and get on in the evening. I'm like, “No, no.” There are still rules around flexibility. There's rules of engagement. There's responsibilities and how we can be successful in this environment.
We also have to own our own brands in this environment because the idea is, I can't just sit around anymore and think someone's going to walk by or someone's going to knock on my door. I have to think about, how do I show up in this Zoom call?
I have to think about, Zoom is an extension of my office. It matters how you show up. Cameras on. Engage, participate. All of those things are really important in this environment. As much as flexibility gives us freedom, it's a huge responsibility in order to be successful.
Paula Edgar: I think that that is such an important thing too. I'm double-clicking on that. Everybody knows I don't like saying piggyback, but I'm double-clicking on that. Just because I do think that responsibility piece is the lesser talked-about part of this. It is key because to ask for and receive the benefit means that in order to keep the benefit and to show that the investment is worth it, you have to show up in your part as well.
I do think it's challenging as a leader to have to modulate for everything that's happening. But it also does allow you to grow and flex as a leader to think about this. I'm never going to ever be mad at somebody saying, "Show up on the Zoom the way that you want to be." I'm like, “Hello, get that camera on, make sure your light is—”
Manar Morales: Yeah, pay attention.
Paula Edgar: They are making assumptions about you, and they're judging you to the benefit or not based on how you show up, the choices that you're making. Then when you don't make those choices, they're also making a decision about that you chose not to make that. Especially [inaudible] and all these other things. I love that reflection a lot, a lot.
Manar Morales: I will say that I think that's a shift from COVID that people didn't lean back into, which is during COVID, cameras on, cameras off—you just survive. There was so much going on in people's lives that we said, "Just survive."
But when you shifted, what people didn't do was readdress, "Okay, what are the rules of engagement now? What does it mean now for us to work in this environment? What does it mean now for us to show up? What does it mean now for us to have the impact that we want to have?" It's not just about, "Oh, I got my work done." Like, I'll associate it to be like, "I don't need to ever go back in the office. I'm getting my work done." I'm like, to have a career, it's about output and impact. It takes more than just getting your work done.
Paula Edgar: Right? Regardless of wanting to be there or not, folks need to interact with you. You need to be strategic and thoughtful about how that can happen and what impact you can have, whether it's on a Zoom or in a room. It's all of those things. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I guess we went right into that without even—I stopped looking at my questions, and I was like, “Oh, let's stop.”
When you think about some of what we were already just talking about—how organizations are who they are and there's this imperative for building flexibility into the culture of who they are—how can individuals align their authenticity, who they are, and what the organizations want in order to get to a place where they can incorporate flexibility, and you can have a culture where everybody can thrive? What are some of the pieces of advice that you offer in the book based on this?
Manar Morales: I mean, I think at the individual level—and it's partly at the organizational level too—is that clarity of, who are you? I will say that if I think about my own definition of success or how do we think about it, for me, first I had to have a belief in myself, which is like, who am I? What do I want? What does that look like? What do I stand for? Really help define that.
Then the second belief was a belief in others, which was around both, how do I want to invest in others, in the power of community, and the power of connection? And how do I allow others to pour into me? I mean, I think sometimes we can resist or feel like we're going at this alone. How do I want to show up? And then the third one is my belief in my ability to make a difference. What's my impact? What do I want that to be? I think when you're thinking about, first, the aligning of the organization's branding or authenticity or who they are, and your own, is first, get really clear on your own first.
Then, on the organization side of it too—we're, especially now, doing a lot of work on culture and values within organizations. You're afraid of loss of culture. That's oftentimes the call back. "Oh, we want people back in the office because of loss of culture." I wrote an article about that actually prior to COVID because that was constantly one of the refrains—loss of culture.
I’m like, “People, first of all, need to get really clear on what your culture is. How are you defining it? Who are you? What do you stand for as an organization? So that we can have that alignment.”
Then flexibility comes in to say, “Okay, well, then how is that in furtherance of our culture? How is that in furtherance of our values?” For example, connection is a value of ours, we want people to be interconnected. We want them to be supportive of each other, how do you use flexibility as an ability to bring people together?
I can use Zoom, I can use things to bring people together in different offices so that they have greater levels of connection. I think a lot of things in the book that I talk about too, not on the individual side but on the organizational side, is just getting really clear on who you are, what you stand for, what are your values, what do you want to perpetuate in the workplace.
Paula Edgar: There's a lot of room, I think, here for innovation too, into not doing what often is the refrain in the legal profession, which is, "We've always done it this way." It's like, “I know, but it wasn't working.”
Manar Morales: Right. I used to say before COVID, “You know who my biggest competitor was? I would say it's the status quo.” Because our biggest competitor was the status quo. Everybody would say, "We can't do it because we've always done it this way." And COVID took that out. The status quo shifted. But there is a feeling of like, I think a challenge we have is we want innovation, and we might want change, but we don't want to change.
We don't want to change our behaviors. We don't want to change as an organization what we expect. And there's such a big difference in change and wanting to change that organizations and humans have to lean into too.
Paula Edgar: I mean, first of all, I didn't realize this was going to go into my therapy session, but it has. I mean, it's so true. I do think that my therapist often says—and my audience is going to be like, "Girl, if you don't stop"—she says that growth begins with comfort ends and that you can, if you lean into it, to your point about evolving as opposed to just going along, you can find some fantastic things because I do think that there's a talent loss when people aren't realizing how to make their workplace ones in which people want to be in because they're being cared for. And that means giving them flexibility for whatever that means for their culture and whatever that means.
Manar Morales: Yeah, and also leaning into the fact that we, as humans, all work in different environments and can be successful in different environments without making anybody wrong. One of the core principles I talk about in flexibility—in the book and otherwise—is that "Yes, and" mindset, the paradox mindset.
Yes, you can be successful and energized in the workplace, and I can be very successful at home and feel much more energy in a quiet space at times and get my best ideas. Some other people get their best ideas by bouncing it back and forth in the office. We have to have space.
A lot of times in my conversations, I say, “Look, we're not going to get to common ground on this. I don't need you to agree. I need us to get to higher ground, which is, what does this make possible for us as an organization?” So much of this conflict and conversation around flexibility is people trying to get to common ground on it. I'm like, “You don't have to. We don't—I need you to get to higher ground.”
Paula Edgar: First of all, you were talking in rap lyrics for me, and I'm like, “Yes.” But I thought to myself, because I'm always thinking about branding, if you have not written an article with that title, you need to. You literally need to—Not Common Ground, Higher Ground.
That's what our goal should be because it is, I think, related to so many things. You can dovetail that into the conversation that you want to have. But I think that we both, in the work that we do, meet a lot of resistance.
Manar Morales: Yeah, a lot.
Paula Edgar: Right? Everybody's got an answer as to why not. I love, to your point of your quote, "If you think you can or you think you can't." Finding ways—and there's been so many articles about firms and organizations who are like, "All right, let's try this." My favorite word is pilot. Let's pilot this. But being resistant and saying, "No, we can't," I do think takes you out of being perceived as, or even being, period, a best-in-class employer. Period.
Manar Morales: Yeah, yeah. My favorite question to ask is, What's getting in the way? What's getting in the way? Let's talk. Or even—I mean, the book goes a lot into the ways that you bring this conversation in, but part of it is, if we can lean into that power of possibility, what does this make possible for us? It's always amazing when we start with that conversation.
I will say, the other question I often ask is, regardless of how the future of work changes for you as an organization, what needs to stay the same? What are the non-negotiables in there so that we can then design and bring that all in? There's a lot that can go into being able to really co-create what that should look like. It's not a one-size-fits-all.
It's not that I go into one organization and I say, "This is what you should be doing." I'm like, "No, let's go into the organization and figure out—who do you want to be? What do you want your people saying about you? What do you want your clients saying about you?"
Let's bring in a lot of things into the conversation. It's not just a conversation around policy. I think that's what people get wrong. They think, like, "It's just about the policy." I'm like, it's not. It's about your people and who you want to be, and it's about your culture. It's about so much more than just a policy. We'll get there. We'll get to what the policy should be. But build that foundation first.
Paula Edgar: Which I think is what was important about you calling it a paradigm versus Flexibility policy. Paradigm talks about that process and the shift in the mindset piece of it too, and I think that that is perfect.
You have been, as you mentioned already in this conversation, talking about Flexibility from—before you were innovating in that, based on your personal experience and then also seeing that there was a need prior to all of these events that we now know forced us to think about this.
How do you think about leveraging that—being an expert in that space before—and understanding that expertise and experience lead into branding? What are some of the ways in which you have used the length and longevity and depth of your experience to promote what you do and continue to do now?
Manar Morales: I mean, I think the evolving piece of it is, I feel like expertise is always evolving. You have to think about, okay, what does this new environment call for us? I think for me it was—yes, the book was a good way for me to say, okay, I wanted to get this out there in the world.
It's a terrifying experience. I will be honest. I am not one who likes as much to go out there. You all out myself. I had a conversation with you at a conference where I was like, "Yeah, the book is out." No, I haven't actually said anything that the book is out yet, or it's coming out in two weeks. I remember our conversation, that idea. It’s not my go-to. So for me, it was a talk about being uncomfortable. Part of it was, okay, are you willing to lean into the discomfort of it? So that was one piece of, I think, the writing of the book.
But I also think that it gives a good conversation. For me, I'm always like, “Can I lean into curiosity of, I wonder what impact might the book have?” I'm also always curious—one of the things I like to do in conversations, whether I'm working with an executive committee or a group of people who are more resistant to me, that always makes us better. I'm like, “Bring it. Tell me what you're really thinking. I want to know, and I don’t even want you to sugarcoat it.” And maybe that's the litigator in me.
Paula Edgar: I was going to say, that's the litigator in you.
Manar Morales: I'm always like, “Bring whatever you have at me.” But it makes us better if we have space for those conversations. What I lean into is, can I give a space for people to hear themselves talk? Because sometimes—and I'm guilty of it too, we all are—we lean so much into that power of, I need to convince you, that I'm like, do I even believe what's coming out of my mouth right now? Am I just trying to win an argument?
We don’t always have spaces to just hear ourselves talk out loud and say, "Oh, do I really believe what I just said? Do I really believe the only way that I know someone's working is if I see them in front of me?" Play that movie forward a little. Is that really true?
Or, "I only believe people connect in person." I'm always like, "Oh, okay, is that true for you, or is that true for everybody?" Let's just take a moment. The Alliance was important because I wanted to build a community—how do we have a community of coming together? A space for people to share ideas, have conversations, and talk about their culture.
I always say, can I just take you to the next step? I don’t need you to do everything I say. I wish organizations would, but can we actually make sure we’re having the right conversation? That’s important. You may say no, but say no for the right reasons. I'm not sure I answered your question.
Paula Edgar: No, you did, you did. I'm glad you also outed yourself. All of you, I want to let you know, you know that a lot of times people will come to me and be like, “I've got something going on. I want to be on the podcast,” and I will decide whether or not because this is my baby and it is what it is.
I went after Manar and was like, “I can't believe you have a book. I want to know more about it because,” and this is a branding piece, that's why I want to share this with you. We were at a conference and I was in a group of people, we were talking about your upcoming book and they were talking about how excited they were about the book.
I immediately thought to myself, this has a brand impact, organizationally and individually. So this is multiple layers of learning around personal branding. One, your expertise, your experience, build your reputation so that people will talk about you when you're not in spaces and lift you up in your opportunities.
Two, when people are connected to you and they are definitely convinced about your ability to elevate whatever it is, they will seek you out and come and get you. And three, even when you're uncomfortable, you can show up and build the space and be in a place where you can be uncomfortable and still do the thing that needs to be done in order to do the pieces.
Manar Morales: I will say writing a book is the most uncomfortable thing, having it out there. Because you can't take it back. I'm like, one, you can't take it back. I don't know who's reading it. I don't have control. When you're speaking in rooms, “Oh, I'm going to go on that stage.” At least I'm choosing what rooms I'm going to be in. When you write a book, it's out in the world and who knows what's going to happen?
Paula Edgar: It's like having a kid. Yeah, no, I'm in the middle of writing one. I feel that whole process and thinking, “Oh, my goodness, it's just going to be there on its own.” It is a brand-strengthener, though, to be able to say author, thought leader, and author of balance. I'm loving that for you as well.
What advice would you give professionals who are also thinking about wanting to write and use that as a tool to strengthen their influence?
Manar Morales: I think one of the things that was helpful for me as I was going through the process, it's actually a question I ask anytime I'm invited in to do a training or do a talk or anything. I'm always like, “What do you want the audience knowing, feeling and doing after this is done?”
I think if you go into writing a book and you're like, “Okay, well, what do I want them knowing, feeling and doing,” not only about whatever the subject is that you're writing the book about, but also what do you want them to know about you in that process too is an important thing.
I think I'm a believer that everybody has a book in them. I'm like, “If I write a book, everybody can write.” Everybody has something to say and a unique perspective. Not everybody's going to like it. That is the discomfort of leaning into not everybody's going to like it and you won't get a chance to have a conversation with that person who doesn't like it. They're just going to make an opinion about it. And that's okay too.
Paula Edgar: Right, right. Everything with outwardly branding, that's like your LinkedIn, a post that you made, a headshot that you take and you put out there. Anything that you put out that speaks on its own, has the ability to get feedback by itself without you giving context like, “But I was having a bad day.”
Manar Morales: Yeah, I didn't mean that or you just got out of content. But I do think there is a power of the ripple effect, and we are big believers in the idea at the Alliance, too, of like, there's so much negativity outside, too.
How do we magnify and look at the people that are doing well, and the organizations or the policies or the initiatives? Then what's the ripple effect from that? If I can impact to say, this organization did this, then we start to measure. I always love it. I love our members who are the innovators who come to us and say, “Tell me what nobody else is doing. We want to be doing that.” I'm like, great, because they can, they start the trends.
But then the other members who are more of like the proven results are like, “Tell me when 10 other firms have done that or 10 other companies, we’ll do that.” I'm like, “Great, you perpetuate those best practices.” Those are the folks who are like, you're going to keep it going and there's a ripple effect if you never know what the impact you'll have is.
Paula Edgar: Absolutely. As you think about the book, which I'll hold up one more time, and what you want people to take away from our conversation, whether it be about branding, leadership, flexibility, what's something that a key lesson from our conversation that you want what folks take away?
Manar Morales: I think one of the things is it's always about something bigger than what you think you're talking of. Like, what's the bigger purpose? What leaning really into that of you might be thinking about flexibility of as an accommodation, which I don't like that word, but leaning into that power of possibilities is really something that I think I want organizations to say and individuals too, “What does this just make possible?”
We can either create this as an opportunity, or I would say this can be a driver of all those things, or it can be a detriment. You get to choose whether it's a driver or if it's a detriment, it goes back to the if you think you can or you think you can't based upon what you do with it.
I think part of that is the messaging of the book, and then there's a step-by-step guide on how you do it. That is that piece of it. I don't know. On the individual side of things for people, I do think there's a lot of power in taking time to define what success looks like for you and what you want.
Doing that deep identity work, not what does my family think success looks like, what does my work tell me, what a society at large? If you define it, you'll find it, but you have to define it first.
It took me a lot. I will tell you, for me, when I quit, when I first had my first son, I have three boys. I always have to mention I have three boys because everyone's like, “You always talk about Jacob.” That's the first one. I have three and they've all impact in my life.
But the idea of, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I just like, who am I? Wait, I used to always say I was an attorney. What am I supposed to say?” It was jarring to me first to really go and say, “I thought success was me being a partner at a firm. I thought that was what I was supposed to be going at.”
So I had to take a step back and be like, “Okay, wait, what does it look like?” And I can be a mother and I can be a successful attorney. I can be this and I can be a successful entrepreneur. I had to think about that paradox of bringing all of my identities forward around what I wanted to shape and who I wanted to be.
Paula Edgar: Oh, that is a wonderful, wonderful piece of advice that I everybody, it resonates, even as I sit here, I'm like, “I did those things as well.” But I'm like, “Yes, I can also do it.” Again, I don't know if you realize this, but you do speak in bars. You speak like it's giving me rapping. Anyway.
Manar Morales: No one has ever said that to me, Paula, I will take that to heart.
Paula Edgar: You'll just see it. I'm sure. There's a certain people who will always message me about the podcast episode. There's a lot of takeaway, a lot of pullbacks where it's like, “Okay, all right, I see you, okay,” your Long Island is kicking in.
Okay, so I ask everybody the same three questions as we close the conversation, which is this, what about the fun stuff? What do you do for fun?
Manar Morales: What do I do for fun? For me, I love Paris, I don't know if anybody, I will say. Fun is I go on a girlfriend's trip every year. We generally go in January, and people are like, “You can't launch a book and go on a trip.” I was like, “Yes, I can. That is sacred time to me.”
I do think in leaning into those moments, I was a tie buyer at Saks in their corporate, an associate tie buyer as my first career out of college. That fashion world of mine is just a great reminder of a youth that first year of graduating.
I loved that job. But also spending time with my family. I mean, family and friends and my father and my family, all of those things, I think those identities for me, I enjoy that and try to find ways to keep that going in my life.
Paula Edgar: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned your dad because I read the dedication. As a daddy's girl, whose mom is not here as well, it resonated really well for me just as an opening. I love to read the openings because it tells me about the person too. I appreciate it resonated when you shared.
I think this aligns with this, what is an aspect of your authentic personal brand that you will never compromise on?
Manar Morales: I think that idea of values and seeing possibility are things that I will not—I'm not interested in, I will say we are here to create change.
Paula Edgar: Yeah.
Manar Morales: I'm not here to do a check-the-box exercise. I think we are here at whatever level of change we can do. I think for me, I'm always looking at like, whoever we're going to work for, whatever we're doing, do I feel like there's an alignment of values in the way in which we are approaching something, are we always seeing that good in something and are we here for that real change? Those are things that we look for even in the Alliance.
Paula Edgar: I love that. This probably connects to that, maybe, maybe not. Branding Room Only, the podcast name is a play on the term standing room only because I'm clever.
Manar Morales: Yes, you are.
Paula Edgar: So what is an experience, what is something about you that would have a room full of people to experience about Manar that no chairs, just standing room only about you? What's your magic?
Manar Morales: I think it's making space for conversations without people feeling wrong.
Paula Edgar: Oh, that's a good one. I love that. I love that. I think based on our conversation and what you said so far, it is clear that that's a skill that you've been able to leverage and what you're doing. I can't wait for everybody to read the book, tell somebody else to go get the book, slip the book under your boss's door, whatever you need to do. Tell folks how they can find out more about you and your work.
Manar Morales: You can go to the Alliance website, dfalliance.com. You can also go to my LinkedIn. I've been posting some things and thoughts around the book, but reach out to me. I would love to hear what people—I honestly do value connection, and I do value people reaching out, telling me about their experiences. Reach out to me on LinkedIn. You can email me, manar@DFAlliance, go to our website—whatever way that you want to. I would love to hear from people.
Paula Edgar: Fantastic. Well, I am glad that we had a chance to have this conversation, and I knew that it was going to be good—and it was. So everybody, share with a friend, share with a colleague. Like I said, tell them to listen to this because I think there's so much in here. And also—little did she know that Manar is a rapper.
Paula Edgar: There's that.
Manar Morales: Everybody, I can't wait to tell my children that. My boys will be like, "What?"
Paula Edgar: See you all, everybody. Bye.
Manar Morales: Bye.
